What's Asian Mental Health? The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 1

👋Hello and welcome to the very first episode of the Asian Mental Health podcast!

This is an introductory episode to help you get to know your hosts, Asami, Marcus and Oscar from Shapes and Sounds; the leading voice for Asian mental health in Australia.

Throughout this episode, you’ll get to know who we are and what brings us to working in mental health.

You'll learn about:

• The difference between the terms, mental health and mental illness and how these terms aren't interchangeable
• The broad and diverse continent that is, “Asia” and how Asians are the global majority

• What culturally-responsive mental health is and why it’s important to people of Asian identities

• How psychology is a Western framework and what that means for mental health research and practice

You can read the transcript below.

As we’re brand new, we’d love for you to help us in three ways:

• Download this episode so you can refer back to it when you need!

• Join us in our mission of destigmatising mental health conversations in Asian communities by sharing this episode with your friends and family

• Connect with us on instagram @justshapesandsounds

Transcript:

What is Asian mental health?

Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

MX IN - AMH Theme

Asami: Welcome to the Asian Mental Health podcast, brought to you by Shapes and Sounds.

MX continues in background

Asami: I’m Asami.

Marcus: I’m Marcus.

Oscar: I’m Oscar. 

Asami: And each episode, we’ll be drawing upon our work experiences, the emerging literature and our panel of expert guests to answer your questions about Asian mental health. We're here to remind you that you're not alone in your struggles. So get comfy and join us as we journey through some big, complex topics together.

MX fades in for a few seconds

Asami: This podcast talks about mental health and answers questions directly from our community. All information provided is shared as general information only and does not replace individualised mental health care. Please always consult with your trusted GP when making changes to your mental health care plan.

This podcast is proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. However all thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests.

MX fades in and out
~

Asami: Hello, Marcus. Hello, Oscar. 

Oscar: Hi. 

Marcus: Hello. 

Asami: We're finally here. We're doing episode one of the Asian Mental Health podcast. I feel like it's taken us a long time to get here. And we traveled through the rain and the wind, and all of Melbourne weather. Thanks for being here. 

Oscar: Thank you. 

Asami: You know, through all our work at Shapes and Sounds, which we'll explain in a little bit, but also in preparation for this podcast, there's like a stat that just continually kept coming up in the research, which I think sets the scene for our upcoming conversations really nicely. In the US, Asians are the least likely racial group to engage in mental health services. Like out of all other racial groups, we are the least likely. And we know that that's kind of replicated across the UK and Australia and New Zealand and Canada. And I think us as a team, we know that. And for all the listeners, you probably have a sense of this too, because there's just so much stigma about mental health in Asian communities and in families, that really stops us from seeking help, not just from mental health professionals, even like opening up to each other and our friends to be like, I'm actually not doing so great. I don't know about you two, but I'm definitely like that. Like, it's actually really hard to be like, I'm struggling.

Oscar: Mm.

Marcus: Yeah.

Asami: So that's really why this podcast exists. And what we really want to do is we want to shed light on the experiences of Asian people, how that intersects with people's mental health, and normalize mental health conversations with the aim of destigmatizing mental health in Asian communities. For me as a therapist, I know that a lot of stigma exists in Asian families, but I've also seen it from the other side as well. Like I would say that there are people who are Asian who overcome a lot of internal stigma and shame to finally reach out and seek mental health support. But then once they access a service, they find that the service providers don't really have an understanding of the Asian experience and so then it's kind of like a double whammy–you've overcome all these obstacles to seek help, but that help doesn't really respond to your needs, and that's kind of the intersection we sit in at Shapes and Sounds. 

MX IN - Theme 2

So this is episode one and this is just an intro episode. Today is really just setting the scene. In therapy, we always talk about the therapeutic relationship and how important that sense of trust is. So we really want to introduce ourselves so you can kind of gain that cultural context of who we are. But very un-Asian, we're going to go youngest to oldest. 

Oscar: All right. 

Asami: I'm going to throw to you Oscar, like just give us a bit of an understanding of who you are.

MX OUT

Oscar: Yeah. Well, yes, I'm Oscar and I’m Asian Australian or more specifically, I'm Japanese Australian. I was born in Japan and raised in Australia for most of my life, but definitely still have a connection with Japan. A lot of my family's over there, and both sides of my family are, like, fully Dutch and fully Japanese. Something that I feel like is not like stereotypical about my circumstances is that my mum is Dutch and my dad is Japanese. Which I feel like every half-Japanese person I meet, it’s always the mum that's Japanese, and it's never like the dad. I don't know, like maybe that's just like confirmation bias or whatever it's called, but like, I swear it's every time. Yeah. So anyways, I guess I'd call myself biracial or Wasian. I guess

Marcus: Asami’s new word…

Oscar: I cannot believe Asami didn't know what Wasian meant. I felt like it was like part of the common vocabulary, but clearly not.

Asami: No, obviously I've missed a big thing. Okay. So thank you for introducing that term to me.

Oscar: Yeah, but yes, I would consider myself Wasian, but someone who's not Wasian. Marcus, let me hand over to you.

Marcus: Yeah, yeah, I am not Wasian. So. Hello everyone. I'm Marcus. I would consider myself Asian Australian as well. I was born here in Australia, but I moved back to Hong Kong when I was one. So both my parents are from Hong Kong, and I was there for most of my life until I was about 15. And then I moved back here to do like high school, uni, blah, blah. Yeah, and I'll say both my identities, like my Asian parts and Australian parts have been quite cohesive like all throughout my life. Cause every year, like even when I was living back in Hong Kong, I would, like, come back here for family holidays. And when I was growing up in Hong Kong, I went to International school. So I was kind of like in a Western environment. And then coming here, I went to a predominantly POC school. So that's like

Asami: The opposite 

Marcus: Yeah, that's interesting. I've always had the opposite.

Asami: So like a bubble within.

Marcus: Yeah.

Asami: Each community.

Marcus: Yeah. And even at uni I will say I've just encountered mainly people of color which I don't know why. And like yeah, it's not like a deliberate choice or anything this is what happened.

Asami: And it's so interesting how you really spent so much time in both countries. 

Marcus: Yeah. Back. Yeah. Like every year.

Oscar: What was that like? Like moving back and forth.

Marcus: It was okay. Like, it was always just like a holiday coming back here and then. But we always had, like, the same house sort of growing up. So it was like coming back to our other home every year.

Oscar: I can imagine that you come into your like second room.

Marcus: It's like, oh, this is my other bedroom that I stay in like once a year.

Asami: So do you feel like you had culture shock as well, like going back and forth?

Marcus: Yes. Because I didn't have like, Australian friends, like I have like, family here, but then, like, going to school or having to make friends. That was a little bit of a culture shock.

Asami: That's really unique. 

Marcus: Yep 

Asami: You know, like when we heard about your experience, we were like, whoa, yeah.

Marcus: Yeah, that's yeah, it's definitely interesting. And I think that's definitely what's contributed to me having such a strong tie to both identities, because it was quite constant throughout my whole life.

Asami: Nah that's awesome.

Marcus / Oscar: Yeah. What about you?

Asami: Me! I, I do identify with that term Asian Australian. For me, I really consider myself Japanese, but also diaspora. Diaspora being like people away from their ancestral lands. But I think there is that term Nikkei, which is like Japanese diaspora of people, like many generations away from Japan, which is not quite me. I was born in Japan and I moved to Melbourne when I was four, and between the ages of 20 and 23, I lived back in Tokyo for three years. I worked there and I really thought that I was going back home to Japan, but it was such a rude awakening and like I was not welcome back, I can tell you that. And that was when I really started to understand, like, oh, there's like another identity. Like even if you feel like a perpetual foreigner everywhere that you go, you can find a sense of belonging and identity in something else. 

Marcus: Mmm.

Asami: So that's I think that's what really sparked that interest in cultural identity as well for me, which kind of underpins our work here.

Oscar: It's so different. Yeah, it's really weird. Like I definitely wanted to feel like I fitted in a lot more in Japan. Like I wanted to feel like, you know, this is half of me. But going over there, you realize, like because it's a monoculture. I think it's definitely part of the reason. Yeah. They're not as accepting as you'd think they might be. Even family treat you, like, slightly differently. And I definitely tried to get a Japanese accent down pat. And I tried so hard and I thought, you know, maybe things will be different. But no, I think it just is like this thing of, like, especially if you look different. I don't look fully Japanese. 

Asami: You look Wasian!

Oscar: So yeah, I definitely. Yeah as you would say, I look Wasian. But yeah, it's, it's difficult to, to feel part of Japan like as one.

Asami: Yeah. And I reckon that's another part of my identity that I'd like to share. It's like for me personally, I feel very, very Asian, like very Japanese. But I would say most Asian people and Japanese people included in that mix have always said, you're not Asian. You know exactly what you're talking about, Oscar. Like even family. So it’s weird, hey. But these are the topics that we're going to continually jump in and talk about throughout the podcast. 

I should also mention here that, professionally speaking, I'm something called a registered music therapist, and I've been working in the space of mental health for almost ten years now. Can you believe? And if I include my work before that in wellbeing? I've been working in mental health and wellbeing for 19 years, so that's a long time, right? That's like a significant chunk of both of your lives.

Oscar: Yeah. 

Marcus: Like basically all of it 

Oscar: That's basically all of it.

Asami: Yeah. Since you've been born I've been doing this. And yeah, we can talk more about Shapes and Sounds in a bit, but that's kind of my connection to this work. And what about you, Marcus?

Marcus: Yeah. So for me, I'm doing my honours year in psychology right now. So that's sort of like a career I want to pursue as well in mental health and psychology. And I would say that's where my personal interests lie. But specifically for Shapes and Sounds, I'm the Programs Lead. So I basically just like oversee all the logistics behind the community-based programs and practitioner programs.

Asami: And everyone. Everyone listening. You should know Marcus is the most organized person.

Oscar: So organized? So organized. I wish I had that level.

Asami: It's next level organization isn’t it?

Marcus: Yeah. Thank you.

Asami: And speaking of someone who's also organized, Oscar, you are.

Oscar: Hopefully 

Marcus: You are!

Asami: What about you?

Oscar: Yes well, I've worked on brand design and social media for Shapes and Sounds, and I currently work in the role of community engagement. I'm very passionate about learning about mental health and I want more, you know, better mental health outcomes in the Asian Australian community. But by no means am I a professional, like, I have no experience in that. So I think I'll be learning along the way with our listeners, which is the exciting part. So yeah.

Asami: Yeah. And it's really important as well, because I think people like Marcus and I, we use a lot of jargon. So then if you can pick up on those points and tell us what needs to be un-jargoned.

Oscar: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Which makes me, I guess, beg the question. So we've talked a lot about Shapes and Sounds. What is Shapes and Sounds?

Asami: Yes. Great question. Shapes and Sounds is a social enterprise. And we started back in 2020 and we're a really small and scrappy social enterprise based here in Melbourne. And essentially our overarching mission is to destigmatize mental health in Asian communities. Like, we just want people to be accessing care in a timely and appropriate manner and feeling better overall. And we do this work through two streams, working with the community and working with our practitioners. And you can actually find those practitioners in a big database of Asian therapists on our website. Just Shapes and Sounds.com include the ‘Just’. But yeah, maybe. Do you want to share a bit more of that?

Marcus: Yeah, yeah, I can share some things about the programs. So some of the programs we run specifically here at Shapes and Sounds includes the Connect and Grow program, which is basically peer supervision for Asian Australian mental health practitioners. And yeah, just because we find that there hasn't been a lot of culturally responsive training for psychologists and mental health practitioners, this is just like a space for them to sort of explore the sort of cultural implications on mental health that they come across in their work. And we're also in the process of planning some new community programs. We're thinking about a creative arts therapy program, but we're not too sure about that yet. But yeah, that would be exciting if we do get that rolling.

Asami: Yeah, it's definitely in the works. And probably a good point to say hello to our other team members who are not on this podcast. But Smurthy is a psychologist who facilitates Connect and Grow. And Steph and Malika are based in Melbourne, and they're supporting the development of those community creative arts therapy workshops. And hopefully you'll meet them all one day too. 

MX IN - OPTheme1

Even though we do run online and in-person workshops and programs, we know that so many people will not turn up to programs like that, especially if you're not feeling great. Like turning up to something takes so much effort. So that's essentially why this podcast exists. We know that people learn about mental health through listening to podcasts, but we also know that there aren't really many that are focused on Asian mental health. So we hope that the next few episodes will really become a resource for you to help you in taking care of your mental health. 

MX OUT

[BREAK]

I know definitions can be a little bit boring, but we really wanted to take a good chunk of today's episode to introduce what exactly we mean by mental health and what we mean by Asian mental health. Personally, I've heard the term mental health and mental illness interchanged a lot. So we want to be really clear and provide a definition so you know exactly what we're talking about.

Marcus: Okay. So we've just got this definition here from the World Health Organization. And basically they define mental health as a state of mental wellbeing that enables people to cope with the stresses of life, realize their abilities, learn well and work well and contribute to their community. So I guess we can say that mental well-being forms the basis of our abilities to make decisions, to build meaningful relationships and experiences in our lives. And I think it's also important to note here that mental health is more than just the absence of mental ill health, and that can look so differently for everyone. 

On the other hand, we have mental illness, which includes mental disorders and psychosocial disabilities, as well as other mental states that are associated with significant distress, and people with mental health conditions are more likely to experience lower levels of mental well-being. But that's not always the case.

Asami: And that's such a big definition; that's so chunky. But essentially what we're really trying to say is, like the words mental health and mental illness are not interchangeable. We're talking about how you can improve your mental health and your mental wellbeing. And when we're talking about different conditions or different disorders, we'll make sure that that's really clear for you. So you understand what exactly it is that we're talking about. 

And what do we mean by Asian Mental Health? Because obviously Asia is a huge and diverse continent. So we've looked up some really fun facts haven't we.

Oscar: Enthralling facts. 

MX IN - Sword of Light

Alright. Asia is a very big continent and it's quite diverse. There's the East, Southeast, South, Central, and Western Asia. This includes 51 countries. That being said, that figure differs between sources. But all in all, Asia has a population of 4.7 billion people, which makes up 59.7% of the global population.

Marcus: Like the majority!

Asami: The global majority. Essentially. 

Oscar: Yeah, exactly.

Asami: We’re not a minority, hey?

Oscar: But yeah, Asia is home to over 2300 languages. That means that we're incredibly diverse peoples. In Australia, the top three Asian populations are Indian, Chinese and Filipino. 

MX OUT

So there's definitely a vast variety of people in the country.

Asami: Yeah, and we should also just really flag that we don't represent those three countries sitting at this table. We're really just here to share our personal experiences and to also highlight, like some of the commonalities between different Asian communities and how that intersects with mental health and mental health care. What I mean by that, for example, is many Asian communities very, very broadly speaking, like they're more collectivist in their cultures rather than individualistic.

Oscar: Sorry, what do you mean by like collectivist?

Asami: Yes. Great question. So collectivist versus individualistic. Essentially what we mean by that. Like individualistic cultures that are very prominent in the West, they focus on individual achievement and individual success and your individual needs. Whereas many, many Asian communities focus on the group as a whole, and you prioritize the group's needs and the group's harmony over your individual needs. I'm sure, like you can already hear how that might play out in different people's experiences, right? And so based upon that, a lot of people from Asian identities or with Asian ancestry are navigating that. Like we live in an individualistic culture and we obviously have individual needs and wants, but how do we balance that within the context of a very collectivist family, where maybe everyone else is prioritizing the needs of the greater good, and they expect that of you too, but then you as a person have your own needs and wants. It’s real big!

Oscar: That is a conversation. That's a conversation to be had.

Asami: And another part of the conversation that we can kind of identify is that there are lots of people who are immigrants or who are diaspora who have ancestry from Asia. So, for example, the Indian diaspora have 17.9 million people across the globe and the Chinese diaspora is 10 million across the globe. So that means there are so many people navigating conversations and thoughts about how do you balance East versus West, or how do you find your identity in a world that's completely different to your parents, or the context in which you grew up? 

I think a big theme that we see within Asian communities is the presence of war and generational trauma. That's quite recent and even in different countries obviously happening right now as well. I think especially in East Asian countries, a lot of that trauma stems from World War II and Japan's occupation of different Asian countries. So for people like Oscar and myself who do have Japanese ancestry, it's really important that we just position ourselves and contextualize that the work that we're doing now, where we support people experiencing generational trauma or trying to process and navigate that historically stems from the wrongdoings of the countries in which we're connected to, which is really complex. And there's no kind of way in which I can probably give that justice in this brief little intro, but it's just really important that we note that and that in essence, we're not here to represent all of Asia because we definitely cannot. But we will speak as honestly and truthfully from our own perspectives as possible. 

MX STING

Asami: You might have heard us talk about culturally responsive mental health and we just kind of threw that term out there. Culturally responsive mental health practice means that you're taking into consideration and you're acknowledging the role of culture and how that impacts your mental health and your well-being and essentially, what we're trying to highlight is that mental health, which is umbrella-ed by the study of psychology, so everything that we're kind of thinking about and all the evidence base that we know of actually stems from a very, very Western framework.

Oscar: Wait, sorry. What is it like a Western framework? Because, like, I have no idea what that means.

Marcus: Yeah, maybe I'll jump in here and I'll give a bit of an explanation. So yeah, if we look back to sort of how psychology as a discipline came about, it focused mainly on CIS, heterosexual, middle class white men and it came out of white theorists like Freud or Erik Erikson.

Oscar: Sorry, Erik Erikson? That's his real name?

Marcus: That's his real name.

Oscar: Like, who is this guy? Like, what was he thinking? Okay. What was his, like ideas?

Marcus: Okay so yep. So Erick Erickson is a very famous developmental psychologist. Basically, he just said, everyone in the world hits these certain benchmarks as we're growing up. So by age eight or whatever, you have to develop this. And then in this life stage, like say, an adolescent will experience this conflict in their life

Asami: And this is what everyone, this is how everyone develops.

Oscar: Which can definitely be problematic I can see if you’re like, just taking into account one perspective to make that whole theory. Yeah.

Marcus: Exactly. So just following on from that. That's why a lot of psychological theories and the techniques that psychologists might use in therapy, it's very much based upon the characteristics of that very specific subgroup. So that's what we mean by like a Western framework, the framework they use to deliver like mental health services. And I guess even looking beyond just clinical practice into psychological research, a lot of the time that research might be based upon the characteristics or the traits of that very specific Western minority. So it might not be generalizable to like people from other cultures. And even now I would say like in sort of clinical training at uni, they've definitely started to recognize the importance of culture and how that implicates on mental health. But it's definitely like not a majority of the course. And there definitely needs to be a lot more focus on that.

Asami: I think when I studied, it was literally two hours in a master's degree of culturally responsive practice.

Marcus: That's really crazy.

Oscar:  Two hours in your masters? Oh wow.

Asami: And then after that you're supposed to continue on with your professional development. But no one regulates like are you learning about culturally responsive practice every single year to keep up your registration?

Marcus: Yeah and I guess if people weren’t trained in that, then how would you have supervision that like really gives you that experience? Like if no one really knows then no one knows.

Asami: No one knows.

Marcus: Which is kind of the problem here. I think something else that's really interesting to think about as well is the main diagnostic tool we use in psychology. So the DSM which stands for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. I think that's it. 

Oscar: That’s a mouthful.

Marcus: Something like that. But yeah, basically they didn't start considering cultural implications on mental health until its fourth edition, I want to say. And that wasn't published until 1994. So that's 30 years ago only.

Oscar: Woah. That's like so recent. Yeah, I guess that's sort of what we're doing here is like the culturally responsive practice hasn't been properly addressed yet. And like that Western framework still stands. And that's something that we're still just figuring out now. 

Asami: Yeah, that's totally it. And that's why Shapes and Sounds exists. And that's why this podcast talking about Asian mental health exists as well. Like there's all these different pockets I would say, that aren't bridging and connecting. And we can really see those gaps. And we want to make sure that people have access to really good mental health information that's relevant to them, and hopefully we’ll also work to support other mental health services to become more culturally responsive, to support the needs of Asian communities as well. 

MX IN - AMH Theme

Asami: So that's it everyone. Like that was a huge, juicy episode. Hopefully it was juicy. But we really wanted to just take this time to introduce ourselves. It was so nice to learn more about you two as well, and to kind of define exactly what we mean by Asian mental health, and hopefully set the scene for some of the conversations that are going to happen over the season. 

From here on, all the episodes will look a little different, because over the last few weeks and months, we've been collecting different questions from the Shapes and Sounds audience, and we've invited some different guests to come and help us answer those questions. So we've got psychologists, advocates, we've got counselors, and startup founders as well. It's a variety of people who all bring their cultural context and their different perspectives to our conversations.

So thank you so much for listening. At this very, very early stage in our journey, it would be so lovely if you could subscribe on your favorite streaming platform I guess, and we really want you to join us in this work of destigmatizing and normalizing mental health conversations. Share this episode on your socials and you can tag us. Please find us at Just Shapes and Sounds. But thank you, Marcus, and thank you, Oscar. Thanks for being on this journey. It's been a lot of fun planning with you both. So thanks for being here.

Marcus: Thank you.

Oscar: Thank you. I'm so excited for the next episode. This is good.

Asami: It's going to be fun.

Oscar: It's gonna be fun.

Asami: So thanks everyone, and we'll see you in our next episode. 

MX fades up for a few seconds

Asami: This show is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong.

MX OUT