How art therapy works: ‘A bridge between the inner and outer’. The Asian mental health podcast episode 24

Asami and Marcus invite their beloved teammate Stef Kam onto the show to discuss their work as an art therapist and an artist. Stef explains how creating art in art therapy plays a role in helping people to deal with feelings and emotions that words cannot express. And don't worry, our third host Oscar reunites with the group at the end to wrap up the season.

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The transcript is available here.

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We’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas about Asian mental health. Find us online at ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠ or ⁠justshapesandsounds.com⁠

This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

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Transcript

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Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Asami: Hi, Marcus.

Marcus: Hello.

Asami: When you think about the word therapy, what typically comes to mind for you?

Marcus: Um, well, I guess it's always like sort of talk therapy. So essentially just relying on the client saying things to a therapist and like, yeah, just like disclosing their issues.

Asami: And like one-to-one as well, like two people in a room having a serious conversation, right? I agree. That's what comes to mind for me, too. But I think it's important to highlight that therapy can look really different. The Shapes and Sounds community of practitioners also has different therapists, different weird and wonderful therapists like myself. I'm a registered music therapist. And what I really value about the creative arts is I think its place within trauma work. So for me, a lot of my work has been within youth mental health and crisis mental health, and that of course ties in with trauma work. And what's really interesting to consider when you think about talk therapy is that actually experiences of trauma and early childhood trauma affect the language centres in our brain. So then what that means is that sometimes you physically, or I don't know, brain-wise you actually do not have the capacity to talk about the experiences that you've gone through. So then bringing people with experiences like that into talk therapy, you can just imagine how challenging that is, right? And then what's interesting about things like music, well, I'll speak about music because I know music, is that it lights up so many different parts of the brain and it allows people to communicate experiences that perhaps words, could not quite encapsulate.

You can even think about how sometimes there are songs that accurately describe exactly what you're feeling. And you didn't even know you were feeling that until you heard that song, right? 

Marcus: Yeah, definitely. 

Asami: So it's like art or music, they can be vehicles or metaphors to give us this avenue to talk about our lives.

Marcus: I remember reading this research, and it's actually from one of our Shapes and Sounds community members, Betty. And essentially in this research it was saying how creative arts therapies, drama and movement therapies, they actually produce better psychological outcomes for refugee children and adolescents compared to when they went to like your, I guess, more traditional sort of mental health interventions like talk therapy. Yeah. So yeah, like that I found really interesting.

Asami: And I think the question is always like, why, right? Like, why do, say, young people or people impacted by a lot of stigma, like why are they more likely to engage in music or art therapy? And the reason why, it's very, very simple. It's because art and music speak to people's strengths and their interests as well, right. So that's kind of the ethos behind our creative arts therapy program called Creative Community Care. For anyone that's interested, It is a six week free Art Therapy and Music Therapy program that we run alongside the Victorian government, the Department of Health and La Trobe Uni. And that program is specifically for international students from Asia who face so many barriers to accessing mental health care. And our job is to try and engage people through something that's enjoyable as a first stepping stone into taking care of their mental health and wellbeing and connecting in with further services here. So yeah. That was just my promo about Creative Community Care.

Marcus: I don't know, I think in general though, a lot of people don't really know what creative arts therapy entails as well, even though there is so much potential to help people through those avenues. And like even just within my own personal life, like I think creative outlets are such a good way to like de-stress and calm your mind. See, I don't know why there's sort of such a big distinction between like traditional talk therapy and like these creative arts therapies within the mental health space.

Asami: Looks like something we should definitely dive into.

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Marcus: So to dive further into this topic, today we've invited one of our amazing facilitators from the CCC programme, who's also a very important member of the Shapes and Sounds team since 2022. And we're very, very excited to have them as a guest today.

Asami: Welcome Stef, so I'm going to read out your bio, Stef. 

Stef: Oh my gosh. 

Asami: Okay, your very official bio. So Stef is a 1.5 generation Asian, Australian and third culture kid. Stef is part time multi-disciplinary artist and part time art therapist. Stef’s been an integral part of Shapes and Sounds since 2022 and started at the same time as Marcus, supporting the Shapes and Sounds community. Welcome to the podcast Stef. Yay.

Stef: Thank you! 

Asami: I don't know how to make it more like impactful, but yeah, it's so good to have you here, yeah? 

Stef: Happy to be here!

Marcus: First off, we really want to know more about your career as an artist. So tell us, what's your first memory or like your first sort of exposure to art?

Stef: I was definitely one of those crafty kids. I don't know if there was a moment where I was like, oh, this is right. But I've always made art. I was drawing, I was painting, like my room was full of stuff. I was an only child too, so I wonder if I was connecting with my imagination and having conversations with myself in that way. I was in a household where we spoke multiple languages too, so I wonder if that influenced the way that I express myself and communicate. Yeah, so finding other ways to speak. But yeah, I've always had that and I've wanted to be an artist as well, despite. 

Asami: Wow, yeah, like from the very beginning. 

Stef: Yeah, I don't know if I knew that it could be something to explore, I think in an Asian household especially.

Marcus: Like, oh.

Stef: Do the right thing.

Marcus: That's very interesting that you touch on the Asian part of it, I guess. I don't know how to word that, but you know what I mean. But yeah, how do you think your cultural identity impacted or shaped your relationship with art, or even the art you produced then?

Stef: It's always been this conflict, which I think about still to this day, of creating something that has value to myself or to others. So who defines what has value? I think about that a lot. And so in the institutionalisation of art, so the gallery system, who are you receiving validation from? Who's putting monetary value? On something. So you're allowing someone to take your, guess your self-definition essentially away from you. Yeah. And I think we can all, we all know that it is from a place of power and money too... So it's the push and pull.

Asami: Yeah, and tell me more like how that interacts with like your cultural identity.

Stef: I grew up in Hong Kong, which is very focused on business. 

MX in - No place

It's a port. So people are transient, people are in and out. I found a lot of relationships were transactional. And so a lot the perception of art was very much, you know, I'm going to make this massive painting and it's going to be a million dollars and I'm gonna be a famous artist. But really. At the root of it all, inherently across cultures, we've been making art since the beginning of time. We've been drawing in the caves, rubbing rocks together to create pigment, you know? 

I think about my art in a way that's sort of may be obscured by the pressures of my parents and their expectations of me to succeed in a certain way. So it was always like, am I going to make this thing that other people are going to like? And not accepting my otherness. So it has always been really conflicting for me.

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Stef: I think I've actively, through art, tried to reject everything. 

Asami: What do you mean? 

Stef: I'm not really sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's always like a pushback. Challenging binaries, challenging beauty.

Marcus: Can you sort of describe something that you've made that sort of speaks to that?

Stef: When I write about my artwork, which they made us do at art school, it was always about otherness and dissonance. So when I'm making my work, I kind of invite people to see something and maybe not understand it. So it kind of brings the viewer in, maybe confuses them. And I do this with installations. So a lot of my work that's been in galleries has been multi-sensory, using sound and image to create that dissonance. So something might appear to look a certain way, but then you get up close and you're like, what's going on there? Why do I feel this way? So that's perhaps how I do that.

Asami: That's where you feel like your art lands. 

Stef: I think so. Yeah. It took me a long time to get there. I think because a lot, it's been a long time not knowing, what am I doing? Why am I making work in this way?

Marcus: I don’t know, listening to that, it's just making me think about, I guess, then linking to your work in creative arts therapy. Like I guess everyone sort of expresses themselves differently through art and they express different things within a session in creative arts therapy, then is that sort of something you like to sort of discuss with the client or like, I don't know. Yeah, I guess that's my question.

Stef: That's a really good question. It's like what happens in art therapy. Yeah. Yeah. I guess in general, it's about choice. 

Marcus: Okay. 

Stef: So if you meet art therapists out in the world, they're just like carrying a truckload of stuff with them everywhere. They're just, like, bags. And with that, we think about material quality. There's lots of research on the power of how different art materials can help express affect, safety, containment, experience. And so it's always inviting the participants or the participant to choose and that choice I think sets the tone for the rest of the session.

Asami: We'll get into it, Marcus, you're like, oh my god, I want to know more. 

Marcus: I have a lot of questions. 

Asami: We will get into, yeah. But I'm going to interject with one question. I'm a bit curious too, because I think we have similarities in this. You're an artist, right? And then at some point you also became an art therapist. It's hard to say this in a way that doesn't feel loaded, but like why did you choose something in your work that's so close to like who you are as a person.

Stef: I don't know, like, you know how at the start of this conversation, I was like musing about how I've always wanted to be an artist. But I think inherently as well, I've always wanted to be an art therapist, but it's an emergent field, as we know, especially in Australia and really emergent in Asia. But it's something about the therapeutic nature of art making. And I think how I know that making art has resolved things for myself. But again, it's the push and pull. Over the years, I've compartmentalised my art practice from my art therapy practice. I think to have that separation, boundaries, as they say, separate your personal life from your work. And now that I'm a few years in... I'm kind of coming to terms with, like, the parts of myself, I think. So those two worlds are coming closer. 

Asami: Oh, and you're comfortable. With that.

Stef: Yeah.

Asami: For me, as a music therapist, you know, it felt really natural, like I loved music and so therefore I became a music therapist because I didn't want to be a performer, I didn't want to a music teacher. So I was like, let's be the other one, right? And I think that idea of supporting people therapeutically through music makes so much sense. But then I think, I don't know, like it got really confusing and I lost the music within my own wellbeing. And I still haven't quite worked it out, so I think it's like now I'm doing something totally different, running.

Stef: Running, exercising something different. 

Asami: Yeah, so that's really cool to hear that it's like coming together. 

Stef: I think especially with music, it is so. It's like muscle memory, isn't it? You need to know how to use the instruments to make the sound that you want. But when you don't do it for a while, I can imagine it's just a bit like strange. I don't know, I think like going to gigs and going to concerts and things like that are going to like the club. Even the club counts as like a musical experience. Or you know, like, you know the lawn concert. 

Asami: The jazz concert is more my own demographic.

Stef:  But you're experiencing, you're having a sensory experience still. You're having an emotional experience.

Asami: Mm-hmm.

Stef: Yeah, I would... I would count that. Mmm.

Asami: Yeah, we'll touch base in six months, right? And again, a really weird tangential question just for you, Stef. You know how art reflects life and the state of the world, or so they say, right. Have you noticed any themes in the art that's being produced right now that kind of ties in with the current state of the word, and how do you feel about this? It's kind of like an art history question. What movement are we in?

Stef: I don't know, there's like so much happening in the world. And I feel like it's kind of pushed art into so many different directions. Like I don't know if it's just the different spheres that I'm in, but I noticed there's a lot of community arts programmes, group artwork, art for social justice, art for mental health. So it's sort of got this social action aspect to it. I've noticed a lot more of these programs. I don't know, it's just because I've got my eyes peeled for these things. But like bringing really art back to feeling and sharing and.

Marcus: Yeah, like giving people a voice.

Stef: Yeah. Collective, not collective consciousness, but I guess collective consciousness in a way. 

Asami: Why, did you feel weird saying that? 

Stef: Yeah, but then there's also the contemporary art world, which is, I don't know, painting came back for a bit, I guess, but there's so much art that's super meta and nihilistic too.

Asami: Okay, okay.

Stef: Um, yeah. And there's probably stuff that I don't even know about, like internet art, I don't know.

Asami: Internet art, like NFTs? Is that art? 

Stef: Yeah, yeah! 

Marcus: I have no idea. 

Stef: There was like an artist, I can't remember who it was, who made a website and you'd go on there and then it would crash.

Asami: Yeah, and then that was the art.

Stef: Yeah, oh, so I feel like maybe that stuff's happening I don’t know, a bit out of the loop

Asami: Who knows? I want to hear Marcus' opinion. You're just like, hmm. 

Marcus: I don't know. I'm just trying to think about this. Crashing website being.

Stef: I wish I knew.

Marcus: Yeah I want to see it.

Stef: And just experience the art. Yeah. Gives you a virus. Yeah, I'm like, no.

Asami: Stef, we've heard a lot about, well we've grilled you actually on art and we're like tell us more about art. But now we're going to shift gears a little bit. You've spoken a bit about art therapy but let's dive in there. And the first note that we made was to make sure that we say art therapy is very different to Pinot and Picasso sessions. Have you heard of that? 

Stef: Yeah. The paint and sip.

Asami: Paint and sip. So can you just tell the listener, like a lot of people do find things like that therapeutic as such, right? So can just help people to understand like the scope of what we're talking about here.

Stef: Yeah, I think we all know that art is inherently therapeutic. 

MX in - Multicolor

Stef: You go to the art museum, you look at a painting, you feel affected by it. You go home and do a cross stitch or do a little doodle. It's fun and playful and you get something out of your system. I think what happens in art therapy and honing in on art psychotherapy as well, I think it's a lens. I think is a way of getting into someone, your client, the participants, getting into their experience. So seeing the world through their eyes, and supporting them to move through it. But it ties into the fact that art making and also difficult experience, trauma experiences, you're at a loss for words. It's beyond words. You can't describe it. You feel it in your body or not. And art therapy can help bring it out, put it back in, put it in a place for later. 

Asami: Organise it. 

Stef: Organise it.

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Asami: I think it's like art therapy, as you say, it's really hard to describe. So Marcus has prepared a pop culture reference and then I wanna hear how this all goes down. 

Marcus: Yeah, so for any of our listeners have watched the movie Parasite there is a scene in the movie where one of the girls goes to the rich family and she pretends to be an art therapist and then she gets the kids to draw something and then when she's looking at the photo, she's like, oh, yeah like there's this corner like this lower right region in the painting that's called the schizophrenia zone and the psychotic, she says like psychotic symptoms often reveal themselves through this part of a picture. And then she asked the mum of the little boy and he's like, she's like oh my God, did something happen in the first grade? And I think, I don't know, like that idea, it's like of like her just being able to know specifically the trauma that the kid's been through, through looking at the art they produce. Is that accurate? I think I already know the answer, but like, let's hear. Let's unpack that.

Asami: Let's unpack. We really want to know what you think as an art therapist.

Stef: I think the way that art is used in that context, like obviously that was so many layers to that movie as well. I think it's about class and being able to push past class and culture, but in relation to art therapy, I think when art is used, and I think in psychiatry this has been the case, it's been used as an assessment tool. I feel like we're moving past that. You know, an example would be, yeah, say someone makes like a red painting. I feel like we're socially conditioned to be like, oh, this person's angry.

Asami: Yeah.

Stef: And that's so presumptuous. You're putting words into someone's mouth, essentially. Like you're taking their artwork away from them. They could explain it or not explain it, but they hold the significance of this red painting. I think in art therapy, you challenge these. It's a bias as well. Like you think of the emotions that the artwork transfers onto you, and then you project it. On to your client.

Asami: As in like you bring voice to it, like, oh, I'm noticing like anger within this.

Stef: Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of like, well, you know, maybe a better way to go about it would be like, tell me more.

Asami: Uh, as in like the not good way is to be like, this looks angry. Are you angry?

Stef: Yeah.

Asami: Whereas the way you practice is like, tell me more about what's...

Stef: Open-ended questions?

Marcus: I was like, why you chose this?

Stef: Yeah, what's your relationship with the colour red? Where did that come from? Like culturally as well, I think red. Like being an Asian person, is great.

Asami: Totally. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that, too. I'm jumping too. 

Marcus: Yeah, no, that's fine. 

Asami: Okay. I wanted to ask like, you know how, you know, that old world psychoanalysis and Jungian theory and stuff, like it's all full of archetypes and exactly what you're talking about around like colours and their meaning and different animals, what they mean. But I feel like that's very limited, as you've already alluded to, like the colour red. Means something very, very different in different cultures. Different animals mean different, have like a different spiritual representation in different cultures as well, right? Yeah. Is that relevant or?

Stef: Quite a lot of art therapists do depth psychology, Jungian archetypal work. I personally don't. I think it's because of the settings that I work in too. It's a starting point perhaps for a conversation. Yeah, but it's never black or white. When I've delved into it a little bit, just for a bit of professional development, It's been really interesting using... Archetypes to explore ancestral lineage. So for example, you know, I identify as an artist. Who else in my family tree perhaps was an artist? Was it lost to them? What were their circumstances?

Asami: Hmm. What do you mean, like, what is the archetype, like a few examples of the archetypes? 

Stef: Oh, there's like the joker. The child. There's so many. Yeah, the judge, that's a good one. Like where did the judge come from.

Asami: And then you're like trying to identify within your family tree like who had what archetype or things like that.

Stef: Oh, the exercise that I did was like listing archetypes that I identified with myself and then thinking, you know, on my father's side, on my mother's side who else had those qualities? Where did I get these qualities from? And then you kind of like trace back. And this was like kind of fun as well, like where did I like get my creativity from? 

Asami:Yeah, where did you, yeah, tell us. 

Stef: So it's kind of... Really learning about your history. I really liked the archetype exercise.

Asami: Awesome. Okay. We're kind of skirting around the edges about what is art therapy, but I think we've spoken a bit about the importance of play as well in art therapy. Yeah. Can you tell us why play is important?

Stef: Play is, like we can think about how we played as children. There's a lot of role playing there. You know, for example, two figurines talking to each other. You're learning about the world in a way and how we respond to it. And so when you're using play as a way of being in therapy, and I don't know if play therapists can speak to the specifics of it, but you're able to try things out. So it's sort of like creating a scenario on paper in an art object where you can rearrange things and retell a narrative as well. So the idea of play in art therapy is very much about the space where you like move.

Asami: This is a big question and a complex question, Stef, but I think what people really wanna know and what I wanna hear articulated by you as well is like, what is that tangible benefit that people gain when they express themselves through art?

Stef: Hmm, I think having an external therapeutic document essentially, you're able to separate yourself from perhaps a difficult experience or any experience, something that's just feeling like that it needs to come out. It's a really safe way to explore something that is kind of irking you. And sometimes it's really surprising. And with that surprise, you kind of... Know that you worked something out for yourself. 

MX in - Multicolor

We can think of art and art therapy as sort of like a bridge between the inner world and the outer world and how do these two things work together or maybe not work together. So it's really being able to visit that and have something to relate to instead of kind of floating. It's like this way of making something concrete that can be really powerful. Like looking at something; I didn't know that I felt that way. But this is me. Like when it becomes a mirror, these kind of moments. It's catharsis. Not every time, but sometimes.

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Asami: I’m gonna take a deep breath before I ask you this question, because you and I are exhausted by things like this. I supervise a lot of music therapists, but the number one thing that people talk about is how undervalued they are in their workplace, and it just like wears people down over time. And the ridiculous thing is once you are out of just say the public mental health sector where you work, or once you're out of organisations, and you're in a position like I am at Shapes and Sounds. People are always like, oh my god, music therapy, tell me more. That's so amazing. That's so amazing. But the day-to-day experience that we have on the ground, especially in like, hierarchical models, like medical models, is that we are so undervalued. The profession is undervalued, the professionals are undervalued. What causes this?

Stef: Hmm. I think we function in society within a dominant narrative. And the dominant narrative would be the Western medical model. I guess in my work context, for sure. People are in psychiatric treatment, it's medical treatment. There's this idea, you know, how mindful colouring in is like all the rage. That is like the go-to.

Asami: Yeah just give someone some pencils.

Stef: Yeah, and it becomes very much like art, music, play therapy, dance movement therapy. It's diversional. It's a distraction from the real treatment.

Asami: Hmm from the real treatment.

Stef: It'll keep them quiet. It'll keeps them settled.

Asami: Keep them busy, occupied, pass the time between appointments, between the real appointments.

Stef: Yeah, oh, they're dysregulated.

Asami: Mm-mm.

Stef: Put something in their hands. But there's so much more to it. And it's, I don't know if it's an inherent bias that we have for, I guess how society views artists as well. Yeah. It's reflected in the workplace with the multidisciplinary team. The doctors are there, psychiatrists, and everyone talks in language I think they understand and art therapy is been working really hard to alleviate that by, I think, actually using their language. 

Asami: Like the medical model language. 

Stef: Yeah. Yeah. And then art therapy becomes a tool again. Oh, we're gonna use art as a coping strategy when it's actually so much more expansive than that. And every person experiences it in a different way.

Asami: I think music therapy has gone on a huge tangential research journey as well, where, of course, we started after World War II. It was very trauma work, like really beautiful music happening on the wards. And then, of course, we aligned with the medical model. So then that then funded more roles, increased the prominence of music therapy, blah, blah blah, you know, upheld the profession, made it a master's degree, blah. Blah, blah, but then exactly as you say. Then you kind of lose what that music is doing and the magic of the music within the moment. It's complex, but how do you deal with all of this kind of systemic stuff or like being undervalued? Like how do you deal as a human Stef? 

Stef: Oh. I guess I've always appreciated a fight. Okay. 

Marcus: Tell us more. 

Stef: So at work, I feel like I stand up for participants as well. And the participants in art therapy know the inherent value of the work. And so I think the power lies in, I guess, how art therapy is so humanist. And so that gives me the drive to advocate.

Marcus: Like, you know you're making a difference in these people's lives, and that's enough.

Stef: And focusing on that because, you know, I often get really bogged down by the system, like the hospital system, but also the wider system as well. So I feel like, I like to think of creative therapies trickling into the hospital, the public hospital system more so than ever now, it's like a really growing field. I relate that to the process of acculturation and migration. And how it's so easy for someone like me to react and fight back and be angry about it. Yes, that fuels it. 

Asami: Yeah, wow. And then you liken it to acculturation being that you maintain your sense of self, like, you know, professional self, as in like the art therapy remains art therapy, but yet understands the Western model of health, care, and somewhat integrates it without losing the origins of what it's all about.

Stef: Yeah. And I guess, like, because I grew up in a, like an in-between space as well, moved around a bit, lived in Hong Kong, lived here, I think the sense of, again, otherness has always, I've always felt that. And so it's not a strange feeling for me to feel like the weird one in the room, the weird one in the team meeting. I'm going to talk about this moment of materiality of someone did a squishy thing and it was amazing and how therapeutic it was because of this, this and this. I think it's kind of funny.

Asami: Yeah, when you just take a step back, you're like, yeah, those people thought I was so weird.

Stef: And they had to listen to me for like 15 minutes go on about this thing that they probably just refuse to understand.

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Asami: We have a lot of young and upcoming psychs and mental health practitioners listening to the podcast and connected to Shapes and Sounds, and everyone has the best of intentions at heart, but you and I know there are horror stories of psychologists with their guitars and psychologists with their colouring books. If you could, what would you say to them? Like, the people that are really willing to learn, not like the people, you know. Whatever. The people that are like, oh, I really, I value music and I value art. So I'm just gonna incorporate it in my psychology session. What would you say to them? 

Stef: Have some respect. Like in all seriousness, that's cool, but perhaps just as in society, there's a hierarchy within therapeutic practice. And in relation to psychologists, for example, I'm just using it as an example, with the guitars and the colouring books and that, knowing the inherent power that they have because of their proximity to the medical model. So, you know, in a meeting someone will say something and they won't be challenged. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, the psychiatrist said that. And really inviting collaboration. Like, what do you think is the art therapist instead of like, oh, I'm just going to take your stuff and go ham. It's a room with symbolic meaning, too. I think a lot of people don't think about that. Like some art therapists don't work within a room. I do for the most part. Everything has its place. Everything was placed there for a reason. And for someone from an outside discipline coming in and kind of stirring it up, it messes with the therapeutic process. 

Asami: So the answer is. Have some respect.

Marcus: Yeah. That's exactly it.

Asami: Yeah.

Marcus: What about for anyone who's listening who is interested in the profession of creative arts therapy, what sort of advice do you have for those people?

Stef: Study art therapy, it's a master's programme, it'll be really gruelling. It was tough, the therapeutic work is experiential. And for anyone who isn't familiar with the word experiential, it's sort of like learning and processing through experience. So like thinking and feeling through making. And so when you're studying art therapy and I'm just going to make a wild assumption, other kinds of creative therapies as well. You're unravelling something inside you so that you can get on the level of the people that you're working with. And that is a learned process. And it's taken many years of work, many years reflective practice, art therapy specific supervision. It's art making in supervision. So you're really... Knowing what it feels like to use art.

Marcus: I guess I wanted to ask, are you saying you kind of have to feel it to really understand what it's doing? Like that’s this kind of work?

Stef: Yeah. And so I would encourage, yeah, research. And I think it's very easy to look at it from a surface level, because it is like, you know, you're intrigued by like an artwork. There's some really interesting artworks that are made in art therapy, but it's actually not about the artwork. It's about how it came to be and what happened in that process.

Asami: Yeah. Okay, so I've spoken about Creative Community Care, but by the time this airs, we'll kind of be looking towards semester two. So Stef, I wonder if you can paint a picture of who do you think would benefit from coming to Creative Community Care?

Stef: Ah, I think anyone who is curious, who feels like maybe there's something missing, I think coming into the place not knowing, coming to into the space not knowing is a good place to be. Yeah, I think everyone gets something different out of... Group art therapy, group music therapy. And that's totally fine because it's so many different unique experiences in one room. Yes, we're working with Asian international students, but it's multifaceted. And I think it's about having conversations, building relationships, maybe feeling a sense of belonging or even just a moment of quiet.

Asami: And you're saying like, just come with an open mind, you know? And you don't have to be an artist, right? And you didn't have be a musician. We'll say that over and over, but no one listens to us.

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Stef: Cause I don't know, like when you're a professional artist or you're professional musician, there's a little bit of ego there. Oh yeah. I felt that. Yeah. So you got to kick the ego aside to really engage authentically in the experience and really get the most out of it. Be vulnerable, radical vulnerability. 

Asami: No one likes that. 

Stef: I know, it's so scary.

MX out

Marcus: Thank you so much for giving us all this insight into creative arts therapy. And I hope for anyone who's listening, who's just kind of like curious about what it is that you kind of have a better understanding of what it might be. And I don't know if you're an Asian international student as well, please feel free to come along to our sessions. But before we go, as usual, we'd like to ask our three fun questions. Before we say goodbye. And we personalised our third question for our guests as well. So Stef, first question we would like to ask you is do you think you can be too close to your colleagues?

Stef: Oh.

Marcus: Or I can give it to you in a different way.

Asami: Give it in the real Marcus way. I notice that you changed the wording there.

Marcus: So the original wording is what do you think about people who are really close to their colleagues?

Stef: Hmm

Marcus: That came out so serious.

Stef: No, it's a good question! 

Asami: Stef you're so serious.

Marcus: Yeah, it's supposed to be silly.

Stef: No, ‘cause, it's strange. I've got a life outside of work. 

Marcus: Yeah.

Stef: Like, I have many parts of myself and many different communities that I'm in. So I make time for that. Yeah, 

Asami: That's a great answer. When was the last time you actually took a mental health day? 

Stef: As in, like, Chucking a sickie yeah yeah yeah oh like a real one yeah real one like i actually was like I'm gonna rest. Maybe this was before Christmas. Yeah, but I did go on like a holiday, which was amazing. Like a holiday holiday. I hadn't had one of those in a long time and I was just indulging. And that was really a planned mental health. Yeah. Couple of weeks.

Asami: Yeah, a day is so short. What do you do in a day, right?

Stef: Yeah, and mental health days, I feel like are really abrupt. It'll be like, you know, you get up and you're like, I can't do this, you now? And I think it says a lot about work culture and work expectations as well. I don't think that's very good. 

Asami: To have like just like one day. 

Stef: Yeah, and we all do it, but it's just like, yeah, we're burnt out. 

Asani: Yeah. It's almost like the presence of the fact that that exists is problematic.

Stef: Yeah, yeah, like if people are calling in sick. There's a problem.

Marcus: Yeah. Alright, last question is, does your choice of art medium say something about your personality?

Stef: Mmm.

Marcus: To say like if someone likes to sketch with a pencil versus oil painting.

Stef: Mm-hmm only in the therapeutic context.

Asami: Okay, like not in the day-to-day context. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Stef: Like in art therapy, if someone chooses to use pencil, it might say something about, and this is a question perhaps, how much space do you take up maybe? Or mapping things out before coming in with more? Or maybe timidness, control? But yeah, there's a whole thing, material choice.

Marcus: Yeah, that's very interesting.

Stef: Yeah, but yeah, I don't know like when when you're out in the world making art don't really know 

Asami: Okay, okay. Yeah. I love that you take things so seriously. We were like, oh, you like textas because you're a control freak. 

Marcus: Yeah, that's what we wanted to hear. 

Asami: You like the colour purple because you’re so weird. That's the level of our thinking and then you bring so much nuance and intrigue to the conversation. Okay, thank you, Stef. Obviously, people can find you at Creative Community Care. It's great to have you in the studio. And what we're gonna do now is we're going to call Oscar back in to join us. And then you don't even know what the questions are, but you are gonna ask us questions, which will help to wrap up the season. 

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Asami: Welcome back, Oscar. Hello, hello. Nice and snuggly. Yeah.

Oscar: This is close to Marcus. Hello!

Asami: So uncomfortable for Marcus.

Marcus: Anyone who's not listening, who's now watching will be like, what the...

Asami: Yeah, so you know Marcus and Oscar are sharing one camera like frame if that makes sense. All right, but to round up this season we have forced Stef to ask us our summarising questions. So over to you Stef.

Stef: Okay folks. You all spoke a lot about work during the season. What did you all take away in terms of work careers?

Marcus: Hmm, I guess like sort of listening to what everyone was saying, especially Rachel since she's sort of like as what you said Asami like that 10-15 years ahead of my career path I guess it's more just like reassurance that I'm thinking about my career in a way that is probably right and suitable. I don't know if that makes sense.

Asami: So it was helpful, having someone 10 to 15 years. It was, it was, yep. Have you heard of this advice, Stef? Like, if you're unsure about a career or a job, then look to or talk to someone 10-15 years your senior, and they'll probably give you an answer.

Stef: Yeah. I'm searching for that person. 

Asami: That's me, I was like, I don't have anyone.

Oscar: Something that I took away was the importance of being aware of the context that you work in as well as your own personal needs. For example, hearing from Rachel talk about her first job in private practice and how that didn't quite suit her needs at the time made me really think sometimes you have to remember to analyse kind of like where you are sitting at and your emotional needs in the moment. And that you can actually use that information to try and cater, I guess, cater to your own needs at your workplace as well. And that might be, you know, focusing on space, boundaries or workplace dynamics, a bunch of different things we heard about this season. But yeah, I it's just more of an emphasis on being aware of what you need out of work.

Asami: What do you want, right?

Oscar: That's the thing. Yeah.

Asami: What do you want? And for me, what I took away after our huge conversation about hospo work, I'm like, thank goodness I no longer do hospo-work. And

Marcus: Valid.

Asami: I'm like, what a blessing that is and how like privileged am I that I'm no longer needing to do things like that and that tied in with that is like what a long working life I have had and I say that in like a good way, like there's so many experiences that I've collected over the time. Some of them have been really bad, some of them had been good, but I think it's interesting how like you are both thinking about careers coming up and worried about like, what's the right step. But actually what's really weird is like every single piece of the puzzle fits into like where I am now as the founder of Shapes and Sounds. Like everything has kind of led to this point and it all makes sense. And this is not the end of the career. I still have like 30 more years, unfortunately, to keep going. No, unfortunately, like gratefully. You know what I mean? There's still a long way more to go. And I think it's really reassuring to know that, I don't know, like every decision you make, it's going to be a good thing. It's going do something good and build to the next thing. And as long as you're like learning and meeting new people and growing and always asking, what do I want? All that kind of stuff. Then I think it works out. And what do I need as well, you know? And that changes over time.

Stef: Yeah, I don't know, hospo had its perks, I think.

Stef: I don't know, like, the pay is better these days, I hear. Workplace. 

Asami: It's like good exercise. 

Stef: Yeah. Yeah, actually. 

Oscar: Lots of walking. 

Stef: Next question. Aside from this episode with me, which is obviously your favourite. Which episode was your second, second favourite?

Oscar: Underline second there.

Stef: Mm-hmm.

Asami: Do you have one?

Marcus: No, I think like all of them.

Asami: Uhhh. 

Oscar: That's so funny.

Marcus: How could I choose?

Asami: Boo to that answer, alright next.

Marcus: Did you have one then?

Asami: I do, I do. I'll tell you. But you go.

Oscar: Okay, um, my favourite is like, probably obviously my episode, like my episode was the first, I mean, sorry, second best. No, I actually did really enjoy, like, I guess the production process behind that, as well as getting to interview all these people. I think it was just fun, like going on a journey and having this mission of, I don't know, conducting some interviews, finding out stuff that is unknown to me. That was just so fun. I couldn't beat that.

Asami: Yeah, I'm going to say Oscar’s as well, which is second favourite. Don't worry, Stef. Yeah, this is my favourite. I love that one. That was incredible. But I also always like our one and five. Like just the three, like just random conversations that we have. And I really like like the intense planning that we have for those. And then my brain gets confused about whether we've had those conversations already or whether we're having them in the studio. Anyway, they were they were fun, too. 

Oscar: They were fun. 

Asami: So in summary, that wraps season three. This was all about work and we kind of touched on work on so many different angles. Hopefully there was something in there that was helpful to you as a listener. You heard about all our weird work experiences as well but as always, we wanna hear from you. 

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If you'd ever like to share, you can connect with us on Instagram and LinkedIn and YouTube at Just Shapes and Sounds. Like and subscribe to us on your favourite podcast app. You can download this episode with Stef for offline listening. Refer back to it to learn more about art therapy because there's a lot in this episode. And share this episode with your friends because word of mouth really helps to destigmatise mental health in Asian communities. So with that, Stef, enjoy this moment. This is the last time we're ever gonna say this, hopefully. Ready?

Asami, Oscar, Marcus: Stay safe! Stay silly, and see you soon!

Stef: Oh my god

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests’.

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